Conversations with an ex gay

nateblack · Senior Member

Conversations with an ex gay

nateblack · Senior Member

and another one

Quote:

T-dub-yaWrote:
My prayer is that the blindness is removed and your heart is softened. I enjoy reading your posts because you aren't a stupid idiot trying to just simply stir up strife, but you are intelligent in your posts. We should question things, but when we are questioning the very Word of God, that is scary. If homosexuality is so good, then why do most people want out of it? Our very hearts condemn us, but God will give us over to caloused hearts if we don't repent and that is also very scary.

Nathan responded:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Tyler. One of this group's main intentions, spoken or not, is to assert that homosexuality is a sin and that homesexuals should change. You hope to draw people in who have been struggling with guilt about their sexuality and provide them with the answers you believe to be truth.

If you truly believe your position to be truth, you really shouldn't feel threatened by dialoguing with me or with others who disagree.

I'm not going to intentionally insult or harass anyone and I expect the same from you all.

Now, you mentioned that it is scary to question the word of God. Why? Religious scholars have been doing it for thousands of years. Denominations form around different answers to that questioning. I believe we should most certainly question and wrestle with the Bible. If we didn't, we would have to apply literal, word-for-word, rules & practices to our lives. And all of you know that we don't do that.

So why do people feel ok to question things like the biblical justification for slavery & segregation that were used in the civil rights movements, but not question the biblical justification for oppressing gay & lesbian people?

Are gay & lesbian people that much easier to hate?

Does christianity require an enemy? ... that's an interesting thought that I'm going to have to chew on...

I do agree, Tyler, that MANY people want to stop being gay or lesbian. Don't you think that there are some pretty clear reasons why?
-rejection from churches & family
-being taught & believing that gay people go to hell
-the fact that is socially acceptable to deride & discriminate against gay people. Ask any gay high school kid.
-not having any role models of successful, happy gay & lesbian people
-not having any role models of annointed gay & lesbian spiritual leaders

As a young man or woman, growing up in church, with a passionate heart for God... loving prayer & worship... feeling called to ministry... constantly giving time to church projects & mission trips... It's pretty heartbreaking to think that all of that could be ripped away from you if you accept your sexuality.

And we question why people struggle with guilt & fear about their sexuality?

The church has inflicted it upon them.

Date: Wed Mar 8 4:28 PM, 2006

I wonder what would happen if a big, booming voice called down from heaven to all corners of the earth that said, "I declare that all homosexual love is okay by Me!", what would happen with these poor ex-gays?

I can tell you what'll happen...

They would all go running like mad into the gay bars and bathouses and sex clubs, screaming in sheer delight and sodomizing everyone that they can get their hands on...all of which would be STILL wrong to do, but they thought that being "gay" meant doing all of these things. This shows that what they REALLY want from God isn't either a change from gay to straight, nor a change of His beliefs about homosexuality...but either their homosexual desires to be gone (which is not a sin because then Jesus would be gay because the book of Hebrews says that Jesus was tempted in ALL WAYS just like we gays were, but didn't sin), or a LICENSE TO SIN (to engage in same-sex immorality with every guy or/and girl on the planet)!

Remember what happened to John Paulk? He was caught inside one of the most nefarious gay bars in Washington, D.C. He said that he was "tired" and had a "relapse" and went into there just to have a "drink" (a drink of something "salty" if you ask me). He went into there to have sex with one of the other gay guys in there. I was a male prostitute once, and these guys were ALL THE TIME thinking about gay sex. They were so caught up in trying to get rid of their "demons" that they slid into deeper homosexual sin than they were when they were "living in sin before they saw the error of their wicked ways". I should know...when I tried to get rid of my gayness, I went headlong into an addiction to gay porn and prostitution that nearly KILLED me! It was only by accepting who and what I am and that there is NO SIN in it, did my homosexual urges come under control and now I no longer desire for my old habits of illicit sex and porn.

Coming out to myself was the ABSOLUTE BEST thing that I had ever done! And I will NEVER try to "change" who and what I am just to please some self-righteous bigot (who is living in a "closet" of his own sinfulness) who can't stand seeing me and another guy holding hands and kissing each other in public. I am now PROUD to be a "queer"! It is THEM who need "therapy"...and not ME.

Jeffrey

Mama Lisa · Thu Mar 9 5:48 PM, 2006

Nathan, thank you for sharing these letters. I'm going to mark this thread so it stays at the top. (On this site it's called "sticky" or "un-sticky"!)

Jeffrey, hon, you really need to learn to speak your mind. It's not good for you to hold things in like that!

One of the best things I've heard recently was from you, Jeffrey (I think). You said that the Lamb's Book of Life is not divided into "black & white, or gay & straight". Either your name is in the book, or it's not. That is so true!!

nateblack · Senior Member

Awesome!

I can't wait to add some more posts!

Date: Fri Mar 10 2:06 PM, 2006

I hate to go on about this...

But I guess what I would like to ask these people who have been "cured" is: "When you entered the gay world, did you do it to FIND love...or to GIVE it?" I think that the answer to this question is at the heart of a lot of the "cures" of these guys "gayness". If they came to the "gay" part of town, looking to find a partner to share their hearts, as well as their bodies, then they are absolutely gay and have NO REASON to change: they are gay for the right and natural reason. But if they came to us looking to find a love that only God's love can fill within that deep hole within their hearts, then they can say that their "gayness" isn't real and is no different from an addiction to booze or porn or drugs.

I know that despite all of the horrible things that I have suffered as a child, I am gay because...it is my heart, full of God's love, that is beating to share itself with the heart of another gay man.

True sexuality begins with the heart...not from the crotch!

Jeffrey

nateblack · Senior Member

This is my response to an "ex gay" poster on anothe message board, namely www.soulforce.org/forums.

Default

My issue with "ex gay" "ministries"

Venari,
Thanks for all your insightful & interesting posts. I appreciate your contributions to these discussions.

If you truly to believe yourself to be heterosexual and are actually physically & emotionally attracted to women... and you no longer have any interest in men, then I say simply, wonderful. Love your life! Pursue being like Christ!

I do have grave concerns with the ramifications of your statement that you are an "ex gay."

Here are some things to consider: (Again these are only even a topic for conversation if you are truly 100% heterosexual. Otherwise, you are simply "trying" to change and the statement "ex gay" is in-authentic and misleading.)

Perhaps your new-found heterosexuality is simply the hetero expression of your bisexuality
Perhaps your venture into homosexuality was just a "curiosity detour" from an otherwise heterosexual life
If you were gay/bi, consider that you are closer to the hetero side of Freudian's sexuality scale than the majority of gay people. In other words it is an injustice to use your personal example of "change" as a model for people who have a sexuality that is different than yours.

Though they're important, those are just ancillary concerns.

These are the things that I believe have the potential to cause great harm:

The "shoulds" that the "ex-gay" philosophy tries to impose on people.

You "should" change. God doens't let gay people into heaven.
You "should" change. "Look at me, I did."
You "should" change. Your family won't accept you. Society won't accept you. Your church won't accept you.
You "should" change. Gays are bad people, child molesters, perverts, drug addicts, diseased, etc.
You "should" change. Gay people never have real & lasting relationships.
You "should" change. You'll never get to have children.
You "should" change. You'll never be peaceful or happy otherwise.
You "should" change. You'll never have a great life.

There wouldn't be an "ex-gay" culture if these "shoulds" didn't exist.

Even if some gay & lesbian people are successful at enjoying opposite-sex relationships and ignoring their same-sex attraction, it doesn't mean that everyone can. More than likely it speaks to the person's latent bisexuality.

The whole basis for changing is where the greatest harm lies. The idea that gay & lesbian people are not good, loving, God-created people creates fear, self-loathing and causes other spiritual & emotional harm.

"Ex gay" ministries & therapists capitalize on the fact that gay & lesbian people have had these maligned theological ideas pummeled into them all their lives. Of course gay & lesbian people want to change, they've been "shoulded" on their entire lives. These ministries & therapists also meet a need that the homophobic church has: handle the gay problem. I think the relationship between these organizations and the church is very dark and sinister. I do acknowledge that a lot of good people on all sides are caught up in them.

Venari, if you have found yourself to be attracted to women and no longer attracted to men, wonderful. To use your experience as a way to impose another "should" on gay & lesbian people is inappropriate and unChristian.

I pray for your peace, joy & freedom. That you would delight in who you were created to be... gay, bisexual, or straight.

Blessings,
Nate
www.nateblack.us

nateblack · Senior Member

Here's a response to the above post about "ex gay" "ministries" that I received via email. My response is in bold.
**********************************************

Hi Nate,

Interesting post. It prompted me to ask some questions, and reply.

What am I?

A child of God.

As long as I can remember I have found girls beautiful, and attractive, but at times I have also found various guys attractive as well. I once read a book called "the midnight express" a true story of a guy in a Turkish prison. As I read his recollection of his first sexual encounter in prison with another man I got aroused. I have an intense natural curiosity, which many times and on many issues prompts me to imagine what something would be like. Any time I have imagined sex with another man, it was arrousing to me. Indeed, any time I imagine any sexual situation, (man woman or other)no matter how far from my range of experience or moral principals, it is arousing.

Am I straight, gay or bi-sexual, adulterer, deviant, pervert? (I truly believe I could have went any number of different directions if I had grew up under different circumstances.) Or am I just a person, born tainted with sin, whom the devil tries to distract from God's best with any and every trick at his disposal?

In the context of your sexual orientation on a Freudian scale, with a 1 being purely straight & a 10 being purely gay, my guess would be you’re probably a 4, 5, or 6. I personally am probably a 9.

Lust is pretty common with guys, I know I experience it. You get to choose whether to act on it or not. It doesn’t have anything to do with who you’re attracted to, but rather that you would put your physical & sexual desires above your concern for your fellow human beings. Lust invites you to ignore Jesus’ words to “love your neighbor as yourself.”

You are just a person. A child of God. In whom God delights. You were beautifully & wonderfully made.

I don't believe anybody is "100 percent heterosexual", nor do I believe anyone is "gay, or "bi-sexual". We are simply people. I hate labels. For one thing people are just too complex for them. (even among people calling themselves straight, the variety of what people find sexually attractive is huge, ranging from the benign to the grotesque). For another, they divide us, and make us feel as though we are unique in our struggles. The Bible says "there is no temptation that has taken you except that which is common to man" (we all face the same things). And third, they short circuit what God wants to do in our lives. The Bible says "as a man thinks in his heart so is he", when we accept a label we become that, and allow God to take us no further.

We are simply people. Labels are often used to divide people. White from Black. Christian from Muslim. Gay from straight. Maybe someday words like these will simply be little asides or afterthoughts and not carry the weight of separation they usually have. We can be responsible for the way we use labels by acknowledging that they don’t really mean anything. They aren’t “true” in the sense that they really matter. Labels are non-issues.

If we see a brown chair and we call it a brown chair, that label is just our way to communicate “that’s a brown chair.” Or “that’s a gay person.” Or “I’m straight.” Ok, that’s nice.  It’s a non-issue.

About the "should change"s you mentioned. I would like to point out that. 1)The Christian faith is truly predicated on the supposition that we can not change. If we could change, we would not need Jesus. We are not so much commanded to change our lives as we are to change our minds (whcih is what repent means), agreeing that we need change, and only He can do it. He assumes the responsibility for the changes needed in our lives. The Bible says"it is God that works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Jesus did tell the woman caught in adultery to "go and sin no more", but He also told Lazarus (dead and beginning to rot) to "come forth". When He commands, He also empowers. "2) the Bible also says" no liar" will enter Heaven. When we give our lives to Christ we come into covenant with Him we cease to be all "the labels"and become "the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus" (God's label for us.)

I believe the essence of the Christian faith is that we are perfect, whole & complete, just as we are. But we tend to forget that. And when we forget that, we do things that are less than loving…to ourselves and to others. I believe Jesus came to remind us of God’s constant & limitless love for us. We fulfill God’s purpose for our lives when we live out the awareness of His love for us in everything we say and do.

And for gay, lesbian, & bisexual people that means honoring that you have been created with a God-given sexuality that is different than many people. It’s not something to be afraid or ashamed of. We are still called to “Love God with all our heart, soul, mind & strength” and to “Love our neighbor as ourselves.”

lowcountry girl · Veteran Member

"Does Christianity require an enemy?"

Great question, Nate! I imagine he missed its importance, but all ex-gay ministries, not to mention the RR, in general, should consider it.

Mama Lisa · Thu Mar 23 9:21 PM, 2006

Jeanine,

What's "RR"?

lowcountry girl · Veteran Member

Sorry! The "religious right".