The reason why I don't go to church, is because I don't believe in organized religion...in any way, shape or form. In fact, I'm strongly against it. I believe it is a way Satan is using Christianity to break up the Body of Christ.
"Why," you ask? Episcopalians are going to Heaven if they do this...and interpret the Bible this way...Methodists are going to Heaven if they do that...and have this little deviation from the Lutherans, who are against the Baptists, because they do full-water submergion...and the list goes on and on and on and on and on and on.....
When Christ was on the Earth...they had a church...yes. But, it was directly influenced by the Son of God. It was NOT something man interpreted...it was from the very lips, the very limbs, the very blood shed for us by Christ Jesus...
He WAS the church back then. He laid down the foundation for what we need to do to gain enterance into Heaven.
Yet...a couple of millenia down the road--man has assumed there have to be set rules, and set regulations. You have to go to church every Sunday, you have to wear your best clothes...you have to interpret these Bible passages this certain way, as I am going to brainwash the congregation into thinking that my way is the ONLY way...that's just it. I'm tired of hearing it, and tired of seeing it.
I've been to too many churches as to where the pastor is leading his sheep more astray, than towards their shepherd. I'm tired of all these steps certain religions impose you take, in order for you to get to Heaven. All these ordinances...all these vows, these fancy prayers, speaking in tounges...
Todays form of Christianity, is, in fact, turning me away from Christianity faster than a speeding bullet. I cannot express my opinions, because I have some whacked out ones, compared to everybody else. I get shunned all the time by people...because they don't understand me, and I don't understand why they have to go through a church to get to Christ, and then go through Christ to get to God...
That's another thing.
From my Biblical study...during the Old Testament God simply wanted man to love Him, and worship Him. However, man wanted rules, and man wanted regulations from God. That's where the Law came into play. Anyway, instead of man directly hearing from God...(I realize this also came from the downfall of Adam and Eve), God ordained specific people to be prophets/messengers. He gave these people authority...so that they may show man the way to get to Heaven, instead of having God show man the way to get to Heaven...man is just that stubborn. We'd rather hear it outta the mouths from other men, instead of The Man...ya know?
So, is Christ another diversion between man and God? And, I know what the purpose of Christ is. To save us from our sins...but, I guess I'm asking what is the purpose of Christ. If God is omnipresent, and omnipotent...why couldn't He, Himself save the world from their sins??
Was it due to the fact that He is so full of wrath, that he would only destroy the world to rid us of Sin? The flood...the destruction of Sodom and Gommorrah...
When did God decide, "Enough is enough," and send His son to Earth? Why did God change from all-destroying, to all-loving?
I hear all these people thanking Jesus for ridding them of their sins...but, shouldn't we be thanking God? God was the one who gave us the way to free us from our Sin.
If I've confused you, I've succeeded...because I don't know what I believe in anymore. I don't know what I want to believe in, either. I'm just full of questions, and I am at a stage in my life as to where I cannot even pray, because I don't know if I've been praying to the right person for the 22 years I've been here.
Anybody else ever feel like this? Anyway, thank you for letting me vent. Yea...my views on Christianity are jacked up. But, at least I know I'll have the chance to get my thoughts out in the open...and not have a LOT of crap thrown at my face.
If I were to post this on a few others sites I belong to, I'd be thrown out. lol... So much for free speech, eh?
Thanks.
Darrel
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That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
You are a true seeker. True seekers are looking for the truth. You are genuinely looking for answers. And that is what makes God happy: He is looking for those who are looking for HIM. Doubting parts of your faith is actually a good thing because that shows that you care about what is truth and NOT what is just "religious".
I, too, once had many questions about God (and I still do about a lot of things), but I know that whatever question I have, the bible has the answer. In these age of the internet, I can find MANY answers to a theological question. When I find them, I then ask my heart which one is true. Since God lives in me, in the person of the Holy Spirit, then I know that I won't be misled by what I feel.
The reason why God let mankind fall into sin, knowing before creating him with free will that he would, was because he wanted to show mankind how much he loves him. He loves us enough to give us freedom of choice. He loves us enough to let us choose sin over him. He loves us enough to send us his Son, Jesus, to be born one of us, to show us how God wants us to live and love, and ultimately to die for our sins and to be raised again on the following first Easter. And he loves us enough to let us go to hell if we refuse that gift of forgiveness that can only be found in Jesus Christ. He did all this to show the whole of creation his glory.
He now has those scars in His hands to show us how He brings all things, even evil, to serve His will. They are the signs that regardless of how far a person will run away from Him, He will reach out and bring that person back to Himself.
The TRUE church of God is NOT a building, nor a denomination, but ALL those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior from sin, and as the Lord of their lives. The church is the worldwide body of believers in Him, not just someone who writes down their name on an invitation card, or someone who has been baptized, or did some other religious ritual. ANYONE who says that you can be saved by any other way OUTSIDE of a personal faith in Jesus Christ is either a liar, or is self-deceived. All those who have never come to know Jesus (like the Old Testament believers in God, natives of foreign lands, even aliens on another planet, if they exist) God shows the truth of Jesus in some other way that the object of His love will identify. That person will then either accept Jesus, or reject Him.
If you're worried about others rejecting you for being who you are, remember...those same religious types did the same thing to Jesus, too. So you are in good company. Just give yourself completely to Him, and He will make you His own child.
And you don't need a "ritual", nor a theological degree, to make yourself His...FOREVER!
Hey Darrel! You voice so many of the problems I have found to be prevalent in so many churches. We're a little different on some points, but that's totally fine with me- your faith is obvious, and that's all that really matters. Still, if you're willing I'd like to discuss some of our different perspectives, so I can be sure I fully understand where you're coming from.
Darrel wrote: ...organized religion... I believe it is a way Satan is using Christianity to break up the Body of Christ.
I agree in a lot of ways that there are bad things happening along with the good. In many churches it becomes less about Christ and more about doing certain deeds, or worse- becomes about following a particular living person rather than the living God. But those are exceptions, not the rule.
From my perspective, I would not say that "Satan" has any kind of control over Christianity in anything even approaching a general sense. Probably evil is at work in certain extremely damaging and hateful churches, but the general trend, in spite of imperfections, is drawing people closer to Christ. -Or at least inspiring people to seek Christ on their own. I just believe God is so much stronger than evil, that he wouldn't allow His children to go completely astray.
"Why," you ask? Episcopalians are going to Heaven if they do this...and interpret the Bible this way...
I'd have to differ with you here. As an Episcopalian myself, I can tell you with absolute certainty- our church dictates no specific deeds or Biblical interpretations that secure a place in Heaven. There's nothing you have to "do" and no specific way you have to interpret scripture to go to Heaven. You don't have to be Episcopalian, Anglican, or some may even say you don't have to be Christian (!) to get into Heaven. I'm interested to know where you got this perspective- I really am; I'm not attacking you, I just want to know how you arrived at this view of Anglicanism.
...
Let me just say how my own church works. You don't have to go every Sunday. No one gossips if Sandy Sherman is sometimes at church or sometimes not. If people feel any guilt, it must be from within themselves, because it's not from anyone else. And if I were to mention that I have an online friend who never goes, no one would believe your soul was in danger. Some people might pray for you if it should ever get lonely finding your own way, but just about everyone in my church would be happy you're seeking at all, and admire your courage in going it alone. Does that make sense? You don't have to wear your best clothes at my church. There are people dressed in shorts and t-shirts, homeless people, the usual suits and dresses, priceless traditional Nigerian costume, cheap and simple "nice casual" clothes -- it makes no difference, really. (especially in the choir- I can be as comfortable as I like under my robe ) Even churches that teach one rigid scriptural interpretation have hidden individual variations on that belief. My church teaches no specific interpretation. Our priest may suggest a certain view is interesting, or another interpretation is commonly accepted or supported by scholarship. But no view is pushed as the must-believe interpretation. While the Episcopal church has sacraments, we do not believe these are check-off requirements for entry to Heaven. The sacraments are organized ways we can respond to God's love and grace, in addition to everyday individual practices. Nobody should suggest these things are mandatory, and I'm sorry if someone has. One of my favorite aspects of my church is that it doesn't matter who you are and what you believe- if you believe in Christ and want to seek Him, serving the rest of humanity, you're welcome. There are people who go to my church that believe radically different things than I do, but what I love is that we can coexist, singing and worshipping together, loving one another and claiming kinship through Christ in spite of our differences.
So, is Christ another diversion between man and God? And, I know what the purpose of Christ is. To save us from our sins...but, I guess I'm asking what is the purpose of Christ. If God is omnipresent, and omnipotent...why couldn't He, Himself save the world from their sins??
Those are some good questions. I've asked things like that. If you want my perspective, it's that God could forgive before Jesus-- of course he could! It's all over the Old Testament that God wants love. Yes he wants obedience, but even when we screw up he forgives us. Old testament says this. Not just Jesus. Then what was Jesus for??? I think Jesus did more than just forgive sins. I think God got to experience the whole of human existence through his life as Jesus. God got to see what it's like, and if you will, that experience changed God forever- changed the way life and death and resurrection works. It also changed Heaven. You're an old testament reader- have you noticed nobody is said to go to heaven before Jesus? Maybe Enoch and Elijah, but who else? Nobody! Everyone, good or bad, went to Sheol to just sit around for eternity. Jesus broke that cycle and allowed everyone to have access to Heaven. Jesus also gave us the voice of the victim. Forever people have been scapegoating, ridding evil from its midst through one person, or an animal, or a type of person. Victims have been destroyed for millenia to satisfy our bloodthirsty need for a scapegoat. But Jesus was the first victim to return and give us a new perspective. Through Jesus we can look at the victims from Abel through Achan, Jephthah's daughter, the prophets etc etc and see the horror of human violence for what it is.
Thanks be to God for his many gifts to us through Jesus!
...and now I'm late. I have a meeting. I'm sorry! I want to write more. Maybe this is already too much, so maybe it's a good thing I have to go. Anyway, I will keep my eye on this thread. Let's keep this discussion going!
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"I'd place myself... oh... somewhere between Galadriel and Peter Griffin."
I believe it is a way Satan is using Christianity to break up the Body of Christ.
I believe that Satan and his angels sit in church and see who they can manipulate. Satan and his angels aren't thwarted by gargoyles or burn up just because they are in church like in movies. In fact, Satan knows the bible very well and I believe those holier than thou people are a target for Satan. He figures since he can't get them to walk out on God then he will fill them with so much pride and make them religiously blind.
Steve
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Lamentation 3:24 The Lord is all I have, and so in him I put my hope.
I don't believe anyone has to go to church to close to God. I go because it's across the street and I don't have to drive, just walk and I enjoy the music and actually some of the people are really nice too. I know they can turn on me if they ever really new about me. Some know and don't care, but those few are not the leaders of the church and they themselves won't run to my aid either.
Being that I've read the bible going on 3 times, I have read things and wonder why these organized churchs' always talk about the "safe" things. The safe things like Jesus died for our sins, the 10 commandments, the virgin birth, Satan tempts Jesus.....you know all the same things I always hear in any church. Those I consider to be safe sermons. I'd like to go to a church where they talk about the relationship between Jonathan and David in 1 Samuel. Or discuss why God tried to kill Moses in Exodus! I'm not saying they should answer them, just discuss them. How about talking about what a blessing it is for some people to be single rather than always emphasizing marriage like Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians?
Every church I've been to has their own man made rules and I am so tired of it. Nobody wants to talk about anything real or earthshattering.
SIGH. I think I'm staying in this Sunday!
Steve
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Lamentation 3:24 The Lord is all I have, and so in him I put my hope.
Being that I've read the bible going on 3 times, I have read things and wonder why these organized churchs' always talk about the "safe" things.
I know what you mean. I have MANY bibles and commentaries and Christian books and even computer bible programs and at my old church the same stories was preached over and over and over again. We now go to a church where the bible is taught with MANY other parts of the bible preached upon. Also, I try to get answers to the "hard parts" by going to a reference called Hard Sayings of the Bible by Intervarsity Press. I go to this book a LOT when I find such passages that are hard to understand. I am a bible study FREAK!!!
If you are looking for a church, here's a little advice:
1. Attend a church where the BIBLE is the source of doctrinal teaching, and NOT men. The bible isn't just a "religious book" among many...IT IS THE VERY WORD OF GOD!!! Anyone who tries to put themselves on the same level of authority as Jesus is delusional at best...or a FALSE PROPHET at worst.
2. Let the Holy Spirit lead you to a church that will bring you close to God. If the preacher includes homosexuality as a sin, don't leave...you come to church to worship God. EVERYONE in a church isn't "perfect". That is why NO ONE has a right to force you to leave. In fact, if they see a gay person walking closer to God than they are, that might convict them and motivate them to change their bigotted ways of interpreting the bible!
Darrel wrote: Anybody else ever feel like this? Anyway, thank you for letting me vent. Yea...my views on Christianity are jacked up. But, at least I know I'll have the chance to get my thoughts out in the open...and not have a LOT of crap thrown at my face.
I'm so sorry- I couldn't resist after you talked about things thrown at you. Sorry!
To seriously answer your last paragraph, I'd just say that what you're going through is NOT bad, is NOT dangerous. Contrary to the way I was raised, I now believe that doubt can be a useful thing to strengthen faith in the long run. Bravo to you for being brave enough to post such intense, personal thoughts in such a public way!
You may have no interest at all in what I said above about the way my church works. Maybe you didn't read it-- I don't mind, actually. I know several very wise, faithful Christians who are estranged from the Church. It's not necessarily a bad or scary situation in which to be.
When and if you're ready, the church will be waiting for you. There may or may not be a perfect church for you, but it'll be there if you need it. And if not, that's ok too.
I hope you don't feel like I'm talking down to you. I don't intend it to sound that way. Peace,
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"I'd place myself... oh... somewhere between Galadriel and Peter Griffin."
TaterHead wrote: 1. Attend a church where the BIBLE is the source of doctrinal teaching, and NOT men. The bible isn't just a "religious book" among many...IT IS THE VERY WORD OF GOD!!!
The trouble is, no church is going to advertise themselves as teaching a "doctrine of men." I'm sure all churches think they teach from the Bible, or at least Bible mixed with Biblically-derived traditions.
I also don't believe the Bible itself is the "Word of God." The Bible is a tool through which the Word of God speaks to us.
I also believe there is indeed a danger in staying at a church where homosexuality is demonized- perhaps your conscious mind understands it's not evil, but we're all full of totally unreasoning, unreasonable subconscious inner voices. This can cause all kinds of stress and mental anguish of which we're not even aware. I'd only encourage really really strong-willed, but laid back, people to stay in such situations- and only then if they really insist on staying.
(my opinions)
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"I'd place myself... oh... somewhere between Galadriel and Peter Griffin."
What would you like to know about me? I'm up for a discussion. Anybody have any questions for me? Thanks! *hug* Darrel
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That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Are you mad at God for allowing the bad things that have happened to you? I know that I used to RAGE at God for allowing all of the bad stuff to be done to me.
I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences at church. I'll agree that the devil is at work within the church. I see it in our church right now in a situation with a bad choir director. (Actually, he's a good choir director, but he has a bad spirit. Does that make sense? He's running people off from the choir & causing a lot of anger & frustration with some of the rest of us!) But to say that the devil is using "the church" is giving him way too much power! (IMHO!)
I won't say you have to go to church to be a Christian. But I do want to share a example about that. Our previous preacher told us once that he was at a deer lease with several other men, and one asked him what he did. Pat told him he was a preacher. The other guy told him he didn't believe in going to church, that you can be a Christian outside of the church, and he didn't need organized religion. They happened to be sitting around a fire while they talked. Pat told the man that he understood how the man felt. Then he pulled an ember from the fire and told the man that he thought we were all like that ember. We can burn for a while on our own, but without the heat of the fire, we will quickly burn out. Something to think about...
By the way, no one here will ever tell you you are wrong. And if they do, you let me know! I'll open up a can of Mama Whoop Ass on them!
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Grace is the acceptance of that which is rejected. ~Paul Tillich
Mama Lisa wrote: we were all like that ember. We can burn for a while on our own, but without the heat of the fire, we will quickly burn out. Something to think about...
But, just one little ember can start its own fire that's totally independant, as long as it has fuel of some kind. I think these discussions and personal devotional practices can be the "leaves" that start the ember's new fire.
Darrel, I have to go back and read more to figure out my questions I want to ask. But I wanted to address the spark issue first
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"I'd place myself... oh... somewhere between Galadriel and Peter Griffin."
I guess my first question would be, have you talked to clergy in the specific churches you've tried, asking what they believe? What I mean is, for example the Episcopal church doesn't actually teach that you HAVE to do rituals and everything, but I could easily see how someone would think we believe that, just from observing a service without actually finding out why we do what we do. Does that make sense, what I said?
Why I'm asking is, when I first came out, I rejected "organized religion" but to be honest I really hadn't done my homework. I thought all churches were like the Southern Baptists from which I had extracted myself, but I ended up being wrong. When I found a church that really fit me, I realized I had been missing it all along.
Your questions about God being "so wrathful" that he just HAD to destroy everything until he just randomly decided to send his son and end the madness, those questions are SUCH good questions. I didn't even think about those things until I read James Alison. In his book "On Being Liked," Alison makes some amazing questions and reveals insights into what's wrong with a lot of organized religion's doctrine. It's a difficult read because his writing level is very high theologian-style writing, but once you figure out what he's getting at, it can be profoundly faith-altering, faith-strengthening material. "On Being Liked," by James Alison. I recommend this book all the time to people.
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"I'd place myself... oh... somewhere between Galadriel and Peter Griffin."
Mama Lisa wrote: we were all like that ember. We can burn for a while on our own, but without the heat of the fire, we will quickly burn out.
Also, we can get that heat from other believers but it doesn't have to be within a church setting. Or it can come from other sources - books, music etc.
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Going cold turkey isn't nearly as delicious as it sounds - Homer Simpson.
Jeffrey, I am in no way, shape, or form angry at God for putting me through any of the things God put me through. In fact, on the contrary, I'm not thankful--but, I've learned that we have all gone through our past events for a reason. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger...and we are all now strong people.
I've talked with a few members of clergy, and found some to hold more liberal views than others. I'm considering trying out this Baptist church a few miles away from me. I work with the associate pastor...and he's been bothering me to go with him just once. But, yeah. I know where you are coming from.
Basically, get to know what it's all about...then try out a service. Kinda go behind the scenes and learn about everything...no? I think it's a cool idea. Like, I really haven't been hurt by church. It's more like, I see 'church' hurting...and I don't want to partake in it.
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That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
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Sorry!
